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Christopher Columbus: A Greek Nobleman? sofiatimes.com Take a look at an interesting article we found.

Columbus Day Events celebrate heritage pjstar.com Take a look at an interesting article we found.

Columbus Day seniortimes.com Take a look at an interesting article we found.

Yesterday's Discussion

Rudyard Kipling and Robert Service both wrote poetry that stirred the public, but left most of the critics cold. Is there something wrong with that picture?

 

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Columbus Day will be celebrated this coming Monday, but I thought it might be wise to run this by you today, so we can explore how we feel about it.

Since many now see him as responsible, directly or indirectly, for the deaths of tens, if not hundreds, of millions of indigenous peoples, exploitation of the Americas by Europe and the first Africa-to-Caribbean slave trade.

(In his famous first letter he informed Ferdinand and Isabella, "He could, with their help, bring back as many slaves as they shall order.")

The genocide of the Arawaks is also well documented in Columbus' own  journals and in the writing of one his admirers, Bartolom—de Las Casas, the great early historian of the West Indies.

But at least, in stumbling upon America, he did prove the world was...round?  

Jeffrey Burton Russell, a professor emeritus at University of California-Santa Barbara and an authority on the intellectual history of medieval Europe, claimed in his book “Inventing the Flat Earth” that Columbus and educated people of the time did not believe the earth was flat. And that, in fact, the myth was kept alive by Washington Irving in his 1828 fictional History of the "Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus."

On the plus side, he was possibly the best travel agent in history, spreading tales of the "plentiful land,"inspiring followers to the New World. And a few hundred years later, he did also inspire, “They all Laughed,” a terrific song, by George and Ira Gershwin, sung by Fred Astaire in “Shall we Dance?”

No controversy surrounded Christopher Columbus on the first Columbus Day that was established in 1792, when New York City celebrated the 300th anniversary of his landing on our shores.

Hero worship of Columbus reached its zenith a 100 years later on the 400th anniversary. And subsequent statues followed, throughout the United States and Latin America, showing him as an enlightened and forward looking hero.

With more and more historians digging into the sordid history, official celebrations of the 500th anniversary of Columbus's first voyage in 1992 were muted and an increasing number of demonstrators protested marking the anniversary at all.

The main excuse for Columbus apologists is that the Aztecs and Incas were no better and we have to judge him by the standards of his time. If we were to do that, you'd have to stack up Columbus and his all-conquering conquistadors among the worst era in history.

British historian,Lord Acton said: "Suffer no man and no cause to escape the undying penalty which history has the power to inflict on the wrong."

While I've often railed again revisionist history, this history seems to be written by Columbus himself.

Berkeley, California, already calls it Indigenous People's Day instead of Columbus Day. In South Dakota, the day is officially a state holiday known as "Native American Day."

What are you calling it?

 

J. Peterman

 

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79 Members’ Opinions
October 10, 2008 12:21 AM
519 DreadPirateRoberts said...

Herbert Stempel pointed out that natives to these shores were called Indians because Columbus thought he had reached the Indies; "They're Indians because some white guy got lost!"  But Russell Means publicly refers to himself as an American Indian, insisting that "Anyone who was born here is a Native American".


But I love holidays.  No holiday gets on my nerves.  They are an excuse to celebrate and "make merry".  When a person objects to this, I wonder what poison it is that he begrudges his fellows their happiness.

October 10, 2008 12:26 AM
724 Capt Neptune said...

Great, next they'll be telling me Pluto isn't a planet.  Seriously, I do not foresee removing this day from the list of holidays (we need all the holidays we can get),  I do agree with CA and SD in their language choice for what the day should be called.   It would be possible to view Christopher a terrorist. 

October 10, 2008 12:29 AM
83 ExPat said...

The Aztecs were systematic killers of their own people and other tribes in religious rituals. But the Spanish at the same time were involved in the Inquisition, the systematic torture and murder of fellow Christians. I'm not sure any of the particpants were the good guys.


When Cortez and Pizzaro conquered the Aztecs and Inca, respectively, they were helped by Indian allies who wanted those empires gone.


The discovery of the "New World" was a milestone in human history, and for better or worse, the world is a better place because of the U.S.  Latin American culture is rich and offers much to the world.


It's easy to revise history to suit anyone's purpose.  But the truth remains, Columbus opened up the America's to European exploration and settlement as well as exploitation and destruction. Perhaps the Vikings were here first, or Irish sailors, or Chinese sailors, or even Phoenicians, but nothing happened after those visits.  Mybe Columbus only discovered a few islands in the Carribbbean but it was enough.


For what it's worth I will call it Columbus day...in fact a good friend of mine, a refugee from Cuba, who insists on it being called Columbus Day because he and his family would not have existed but for Columbus.


Besides Columbus didn't get much respect even when he was alive.  His plans to build a Renaissance-style city failed, the New World was called after Amerigo Vespucci, a fellow Italian, and he lost the respect of the Royal family in Spain.


Such is the destiny of historically important men and women.  They get no respect while alive and obviously no respect after their dead.

more on the honor roll
October 10, 2008 12:34 AM
Machinator said...

I once helped convince my high school to celebrate Leif Eriksson day instead. Not that I don't want the day off...but sometimes we really do need to examine what we celebrate.

October 10, 2008 12:58 AM
83 ExPat said...

The one day I don't like is Valentine's Day, because if you truly love someone every day is Valentine's Day. All the other Days stand alone, love is year round.

October 10, 2008 1:09 AM
1237 nachista said...

Peterman I call it a much needed paid day off/federal holiday.  Any fool can sleep in on the weekend, but its a true luxury to sleep in on a Monday...I may even stay in bed as late as 8am!  Thank you Chris!

October 10, 2008 1:09 AM
mark swaim said...

As to what Berserkley wants to call it, consider the source. The long-term consequences of the activities of Columbus and his men have left the world an elementally different, and in my view, better place. Ex Pat has put it so well and so circumspect, that further words from me might sould like me plagiarizing him. I would just add that in my family we think of 12 October as my brother's birthday, He always got out of school on his birthday.

October 10, 2008 1:17 AM
1237 nachista said...

Do we all seriously believe that Christopher Columbus and his crews were the first Europeans to visit the Terra Nova?  He wasn't the first, not by a long shot. 


I personally thing the Ogham stone found on Newfoundland is a pretty good indication that Columbus was beaten by AT LEASE a thousand years by the Irish.  Read "The Brendan Voyage" by Tim Severin, he proved that it was not only possible, but probable as well.  Too bad the Irish didn't stay to bid Christopher a good old Cead Mille Failte, what a piss up that would have been.

October 10, 2008 1:23 AM
1237 nachista said...

Expat I agree, Valentines is emotional blackmail.  When I was single we used to call it V-D or S.A.D...single awareness day.  But the sad truth is that most of us get so caught up in day to day life that we forget to celebrate once in a while and we have to be told.


Declare your own holiday.  About a decade ago some friends of ours built a small log cabin in their backyard as a playhouse for their kids, there was a big pile of dirt leftover from scraping the lot and digging a foundation.  The day they finished the cabin and had a ceremonial moving in party, their 2 year old struggled to the top of the hill and for some unknown reason yelled out when he got to the top of the mound "Dis is BOB!".  Everyone thought is was pretty funny and they decided that from that day forward it would be known as BOB Day and they would spend it playing in and around the cabin and the newly christened Bob Hill.  I think those are the best kinds of holidays.

October 10, 2008 1:23 AM
141 Peter Lake said...

I think the first visitor to this continent's East Coast was some guy named Eddie.

October 10, 2008 1:26 AM
1237 nachista said...

No offense y'all but when Sir Boyscout gets home from training I'm going to celebrate not needing to stay up late with a computer for company holiday.  I shall call it Welcome Home 10/11/08...there will be a sign on the door and message on my cell phone that all phone calls will be returned after a 24 hour "quality time".  Feel free to celebrate it with someone you love, just don't do it at my house, its taken.

October 10, 2008 1:28 AM
1237 nachista said...

I'm gonna be soooo knackered at work tomorrow, maybe we should have 3 holidays to celebrate Colombus, one for each boat...tomorrow can be the Nina day, Monday can be the Pinta day, and Tuesday can be the Santa Maria day.  Now a 5 day weekend, that's cause for celebration.

October 10, 2008 1:39 AM
737 the Cosmic Jester said...

I think I shall call it... Monday.

Perchance we should call it Friday... After all, Columbus mistakenly thought he found an express route to India, we can mistakenly think we have found an express route to the weekend.

October 10, 2008 6:46 AM
1198 Doc Nolan said...

Down here in Texas folks say, 'Huh? A holiday?  What day is it? Columbus Day they're CLOSED?!?'

Now Cinco de Mayo, that's another story... just like the Fourth of July, EVERYBODY knows about Cinco de Mayo!

October 10, 2008 7:01 AM
1198 Doc Nolan said...

If you have never read Christopher Columbus's log of his journey, it has been published (yep, in my library) but is also available online at http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=523800  .  The day-by-day account is sometimes sad (he did indeed discover unspoiled lands), sometimes tragic, and sometimes -- inadvertently hilariously funny. 

The natives quickly figured out the Spaniards were fascinated by gold.  After being duly hospitable to the strangers, the Indians (like most folks) began wondering, 'Well, it has been several days!  When are they going to leave?'  It didn't take a genius to come up with a simple way to get the Spaniards to 'move on'.  The natives would say, 'Oh, you think these small trinkets of gold are impressive?  You should see the immense amounts of gold the folks on that island over there have!'  -- And, almost like magic, the Spaniards would hoist sail and vanish.  (Oh, after a few such encounters, the Spanish, no dummies either, became very skeptical of Indian tales of 'gold over there').  

Also, Columbus was no great naturalist and his descriptions of local fauna and flora are often side-splittingly funny.  The logs are well worth reading!  

October 10, 2008 7:10 AM
1198 Doc Nolan said...

Here's a sample of Chris's somewhat garbled knowledge of the 'non-maritime' resources he encountered: ""These people are very meek and very fearful, naked as I have said, without arms and without government. These lands are very fertile. They are full of 'mames' which are like carrots and taste like chestnuts and they have 'faxones' and beans very different from ours, and a great deal of cotton, which they do not sow and which grows in the mountains, large trees of it: and I believe they have it ready to gather all the time because I saw the pods opened and others which were opening and flowers all on one tree and a thousand other kinds of fruits of which it is not possible for me to write and it must all be a profitable thing."-- If any Yankees think cotton grows on trees, well, sorry, folks, it doesn't... It is interesting to note that he DOES describe mamey fruit (a favorite of Cubans still) -- but they taste a lot more like baked sweet potatoes than chestnuts!

October 10, 2008 7:26 AM
1046 Willie Trask said...

OK, anybody want to discuss how many of us are North Americans of European descent, and how if Columbus wasn't first, he seems to have been best remembered, and how, if he hadn't come and done what he did, most likely someone else would have? But do you really want to open up your paper and see a sale flyer that reads

"Inevitable European Invader Overcompensating for our Colllective Inherited Guilt Day SALE"?


Those of us who watched The Sopranos know that Columbus Day is for some Italian Americans a cognate of St Patrick's Day, only with better food and less public drinking. Much has been made of the practice of putting Christian names on previously Pagan or indigenous practices, places and holidays. Has anyone else noticed that the Federal Government managed to find days of cultural significance neatly dispersed throughout the calendar?

 I think Peterman is being polemical. Columbus' theoretical guilt varies drastically with one's perspective and, yes, the 1992 anniversary may not have been as big a dealas 1892, but that may be in large part because some people realized that North America is not the permanent center of the universe. 

 

My father was the 7th or 8th generation Christopher in his family and he was born on Columbus Day, but it wasn't a holiday ( as in take the day off) for most of his life. And when it was, it was a Monday Holiday. This year the Monday in question does fall on 10/12, but that is not always the case.  I will think of it as my father's birthday.

 

As for Lord Acton, you can tell he was long gone before today's era of the do-over, the rewind, the second take. Wrong? WRONG?! That  just means "try again". Why is there a penalty for THAT? How many PEOPLE magazine articles would disappear if we believed in no political redemption, no show biz comeback, no Second Acts?

 

Nachista, when you are building your soundtrack for this weekend, may I suggest you investigate SHARON JONES AND THE DAP KINGS' 100 days, 100  nights? There is a song on there about not answering the phone until the fat lady sings. 

 

By the way, that 30% Columbus Day Clearance? They're having it on Wall Street this year and it's an excellent opp for bargain shopping. We have nothing to fear except the fear that prices will go lower before we jump. 

October 10, 2008 7:33 AM
Tony D said...

Columbus Day is just another work day for me.

October 10, 2008 7:47 AM
1046 Willie Trask said...

My state jumps from Labor Day to Veterans Day.  I will be going at the salt with a shovel and a pick on Monday.

October 10, 2008 9:03 AM
210 MACKDADDY1 said...

i LOOOOOVE HOLIDAYS!  I AM IN THE PROCESS OF MAILING MY HALLOWEEN INVITATIONS AS WE SPEAK.  THEY ARE A LITTLE BLACK BOX THAT WHEN YOU OPEN IT THERE IS A BLOODY FINGER WITH A BOW TIED AROUND IT SAYING "DON'T FORGET".  i REALLY GET INTO THE WHOLE HOLIDAY.  MY HOME IS OF COURSE DECORATED FOR THE OCCASION (remember I have three grandsons) AND MY MENU IS ALWAYS INDICATIVE OF THE OCCASION.  SEE EXAMPLE:  NIGHT CRAWLER CHILI, REST IN PIZZA, WEREWOLF NUGGETS WITH BLOOD SAUCE, HAUNTED FOREST AND VOLCANO DIP, GOBLIN CHEESEBALL, SCARECROW DIP, QUICKSAND, MOUSE DROPPING CHEESECAKE DIP AND BONES, MONSTER MUNCHIES, SPIDER CAKE, CANDY CORN SUGAR COOKIES, WITCHES BREW, MAGIC POTION, AND SWAMP WATER.  NEED I SAY MORE?  WE HOST A PARTY FOR ABOUT 50 AND WE ALWAYS HAVE APPROPRIATE MOVIES AND MUSIC OF COURSE.  WE ALWAYS DRESS THE PART, BUT NEVER ANYTHING TOO GROSS.  WE JUST HAVE FUN.  WE HOST PARTIES FOR A LOT OF OCCASIONS; MARDI GRAS, DERBY, SUMMER BACKYARD THEATRE NIGHT, HALLOWEEN, THNAKSGIVING, CHRISTMAS AND ANY OTHER WE CAN THINK OF.  OUR HOME IS ALWAYS FULL OF PEOPLE AND LAUGHTER.  LIKE, I SAID I JUST LOVE HOLIDAYS.   

October 10, 2008 9:07 AM
Gia said...

Halloween, definitely. When do we start planning for it. June? I'm calling it Monday. But it's nice that the Feds call it a holiday. And, of course, there is pressure on the boys on Valentine's day. I think most would just like to forget it.

October 10, 2008 9:30 AM
110 Heiress said...

Count me out of that - old Spanish ancestry and all!  I see nothing to celebrate in those violent, invasive times (today's current reality is bad enough).

Par contre, there is some lovely Omar Khayyam for y'all on yesterday's thread (Olivia & Ex-Pat, go & see)...  Let's celebrate wine instead (and barring that, poetry about wine is a fine substitute). ;)

October 10, 2008 10:01 AM
293 rings90 said...

Columbus Day is my DH's birhtday.


In this area we never really had it off form school or work, only knew that the banks & post office would be closed that Monday & then again in November for Veterans day.


In my H.S. world history class we actually had this "issue" as the Histoical Essay Question (It was one of the best things I ever wrote about in all 4 years of school. The other being on the plays My Fair Lady & Gigi)  I was & still am under the same opinion as Expat is about the whole matter.  The poor guy getting blamed for destroying a culture seems a little drastic.  Look at the odds of it IF columbus wouldn't have done so some other Joe Schmo would have & more than likley due to the fact that the Natives weren't really prepared for "outside germs" The same result would have happened & we would be discussing how Joe Schmo was a bad guy for deciding to sail on the ocean.  


People seem to judge history & seem to be Monday morning QB's while doing so.  One thing I have learned in my short life is that you have to judge history in its correct timings. The Inqusition (NOBODY EXPECT THEM), Henry VIII splitting form Rome, Peter the Great, settling into the new world, The Revolutions, the Civil War, Women not having the right to vote, , Jim Crowe laws, these & many, many other things HAVE to be judged in their times. Not by using today's standards.  There is more education & information out today then their was at any other time in history & we the people recording & recounting history need to keep that in perspective, before we try to rewrite all of it so no feels "guilty".  

October 10, 2008 10:08 AM
293 rings90 said...

Of we have to ask does everyone today realize that the earth is round?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNC117UYsHs


After seeing this I guess not, after 500+ years the "Columbus Discovery" has not been taught to a few Americans.....

October 10, 2008 10:23 AM
790 MissIve said...

I don't believe in 'lip-service' apologies. If you're so sorry about what Columbus did, please feel free to get off 'their land.'

If you decide to stay, then you're subscribing to what most of us know intrinsically, life generally comes down to "survival of the fittest."

That doesn't mean that we LIKE the fittest better than the less fit, it just means that history is what it is for a reason.

Trask, this had me rolling:

"Inevitable European Invader Overcompensating for our Colllective Inherited Guilt Day SALE"?

October 10, 2008 10:33 AM
1237 nachista said...

Celestial Jester...I like the way you think!

October 10, 2008 10:39 AM
1237 nachista said...

Willie Trask thanks for the sound track suggestion.  He's been doing safety on the range while all the guys are doing their rifle quals...I think he wants some peace and quiet.  If I were going to make a sound track I think it would also have to have Pat Greene's song "Three Days".

October 10, 2008 10:57 AM
1237 nachista said...

Missive, I wish I said what you said, nicely put.


I've been thinking about this all morning.  The "discovery" of the new world brought so much back to Europe (aside from new and interesting veneral diseases and slaves).  If they had never discovered it, Ireland wouldn't be famous for potatoes and the Swiss wouldn't be famous for chocolate (have you tasted Spanish chocoloate?  They may have "found" it but they didn't know what to do with it). 


Reading about Christopher Columbus (I always spell his name wrong but I think that's right) really hit home that he wasn't evil, he was a product of his time.  He was ambitious (gee THAT's not a trait we value in America, is it?), he took a huge risk, and his discovery fast tracked the European countries colonization movement.  Right or wrong (regardless of past consequences) I believe that he has impacted this country for the better.


So MackDaddy, should I wait by my mailbox for an invitation?  I think I gained 10lbs reading your menu.

October 10, 2008 11:07 AM
210 MACKDADDY1 said...

Hi nachista:


You bet!  EVERYONE is invited...I truly adhere to the old adage "the more the merrier".  I will furnish a plethora of food and spirits (of multiple sorts, liquid and spooky)!  Believe it or not, I am hosting a party (petting zoo) this weekend for my one year old grandson, Brady (70 people), next weekend is a baby shower tea for just 15, then the big Boo-fet is the following weekend.  I mailed the Halloween invites today and am now designing my Ky. Derby invitations for next May.  Have a bootiful day all!  

October 10, 2008 11:08 AM
1046 Willie Trask said...

In these parts, most of the summer ( and much of the spring and fall ) is devoted to festivals. If your town is too small to have a festival, you are in bad shape indeed. There are wide places in the road that have festivals. Once you get past the theme ( Watermelon, cotton, railroads, Okra, peaches, Yankee stereotyping of the locals, etc.) the rest is easy. There will be an art show. There will be clogging. There will be face painting and karate. There will be classic cars, cotton candy and crafts. Local media will be there, though they may simply rcycle their footage from previous years. The inevitable presence of politicians  provides a keystone feature useful in dating photographs ( "Strom's hair is orange, it must have been the 90s").

And  some band famous mostly with people too old to enjoy them anymore will be there to "perform".  Our legislature has actually passed a law sometimes referred to as the "one Drifter rule" that says you can't claim to be Maurice Williams and the zodiacs, or The Tams or The Drifers or the Bangles unless at least one of the performers onstage was in the band on or around the time  the band had its hit(s). Perhaps this is why an EMS truck is always present at festivals.

 For those who don't know, "Clogging" does not refer to the results of eating festival food, either in the bloodstream, or the more immediate path of the food. Clogging is like buckdancing, sort of.  Clogging may even be a little like Irish Step Dancing. If you can iomagine what Michael Flatley would do with Rocky Top playing, you have a pretty good impression of clogging. 

 

For those who like their fantasy disguised, the movie What the Bleep Do We Know suggests that until the indigenous people had seen a ship from the Old World, they had no way of conceiving of one, so they actually could not perceive the invaders until it was too late. I am not so sure.  I think deep fried Snickers bars existed before I heard of them or saw them, though I have to admit the concept was harder to swallow than the reality.  

October 10, 2008 11:29 AM
293 rings90 said...

I LOVED ~ What the Bleep ~ Watched with abunch of people about a year ago, turned out to hear some quite interesting perspectives from everyone seeing it.


Willie Traks ~ I'm with you about the Deep Fried Snickers though, last weekend in Bayfiels at the Applefest they had boothes sellign deep friedn twinkies & Oreo's.  Talk about ruining a perfectly good cookie, I swear it just made my poor heart sink.... 

October 10, 2008 11:30 AM
244 OncDoc said...

Columbus did not set sail with the intent of committing genocide, no matter what the revisionists like to think.  He was looking to get rich from a new source of trade and/or natural resources.  The fact that one superior culture out-performed and eclipsed another is nothing to be ashamed of.  Natural selection at work is not wrong. 

October 10, 2008 12:00 PM
141 Peter Lake said...

Ye gods and little fishes, I can barely wrap my arms around all of the things that I've done wrong throughout my life, let alone absorb the guilt of mankind throughout the centuries. I'm already a bit tired.

Miss Ive said it very well, as she is always does, "If you're so sorry about what Columbus did, please feel free to get off 'their land.'" I really do appreciate a daily dose of plain speak and straight talk. It's so invigorating!

Not having the ability to resurrect the dead or to rewind history, then the next best thing is to learn from the past, and to hopefully try harder to take the high road in the present and set examples that will enable our children to better shape the future.

As far as holidays goes, I'd rather make a conscious effort to celebrate and be grateful for life's blessings on a daily basis and to use holidays as a reminder to do so. If the intent of a holiday is noble in nature, then celebrate the intent.

I think the idea of holidays is to inspire.

October 10, 2008 12:05 PM
1237 nachista said...

Yeah Willie, clogging is sort of like Irish Step dancing if you squint and turn your head to the side and hold your breath and plug your ears.  ;)  I LOVE festivals and I don't care what they are festing.  Around here the smaller the town the more likely it is to have a festival, the larger the town the more likely they are to NOT have festivals. 


#1 reason to love festivals...the FOOD!  Grilled corn on the cob, real Brasillian churros with guava filling, Texas Twisters, funnel cake, navajo tacos, bbq, cinnamon roasted nuts, irish stew, colcannon, swedish meatballs, cotton candy, carmel and candy apples, fresh beef jerky, gyros, grilled sausage and onions, turkey legs,  home cut fries, artisan cheese and bread, frozen lemonade, kettlecorn, chinese, thai, pizza, and chili in bread bowls.

October 10, 2008 12:07 PM
1046 Willie Trask said...

Hey Rings,

 

I don't mean to dismiss What the Bleep completely out of hand, but it is not founded firmly on science as most people understand the term. The slightly drunk sounding lady with the indeterminate (English?) accent is channeling Ramtha, a 35,000 year old Atlantan.  That would be AtlanTIS, not AtlanTA.   The Ramsters paid for the movie. It sounds like they have a pretty good time up there in Washington State. My primary question is this: If I am responsible for my own reality, why on earth can't I imagine a nicer one than this?  Say, with more closet space and lower credit card interest?

And please don't suggest cleaning out my closet and paying bills on time. That sounds too much like work.

October 10, 2008 12:15 PM
210 MACKDADDY1 said...

I love festivals and my family and I go to one or more almost every weekend during the fall.  The one that I really want to go to is in Gilroy, CA.  It's the Garlic Festival.  I want to try the garlic ice cream and cake!  Ok nachista...you got me back.  Your list of festival foods have made me hungry.  Thank goodness it's lunchtime!  I think I will partake in some garlic chicken for lunch! 

October 10, 2008 12:24 PM
1237 nachista said...

If you like Garlic you should stop in at the Stinking Rose the next time you're in San Francisco.

October 10, 2008 12:50 PM
519 DreadPirateRoberts said...

nachista,


I've been meaning to tell you how much I love your new photo.  But what about that need for sleeves you mentioned?


Anyway, you make a great point about festivals and how hard they are to find in large towns.  One of the few things I don't like about New York is that our "street festivals" bear virtually no resemblence to the country fairs of my youth.  Though the food is there, better, and more diverse.  In addition to the goodies you mentioned, street fairs in New York feature great French crepes, Mexican mozzarepas, Italian sausage trucks, and other such treats.  But that's about as far as it goes.  In general, the country festivals have the advantage.


ExPat's point about Valentine's Day being essentially unromantic (as if we don't love each other the rest of the time) is very good.  But I also like your point about how we get so caught up that we need reminding.  I tend to be a defender of Valentine's Day because I'm sick and tired of hearing how it was "a holiday invented by greeting card companies solely as a means of selling their product" which is so patently absurd.  Even a cursory study of history reveals info about Saint Valentine and his mention in, among other places, the works of Shakespeare.


By the way, there's also a great little restaurant called The Garlic Rose in Madison, New Jersey, home of Drew University and the New Jersey Shakespeare Festival.

October 10, 2008 12:52 PM
141 Peter Lake said...

rings90,  Did you take the ferry to Madeline Island while in Bayfield?

rings90, natchista & willy t.

It's a good thing for me that I got a good report card from my cardio doc.  You folks have got me craving deep fried anything right now and we are pretty much Fested out around here until next summer. Deep fried pickles sound interesting to me, with a pork chop sandwich and curly fries.

Oh well, back to the real world. . . .  make that a Boca burger with a side salad :(

October 10, 2008 12:56 PM
1237 nachista said...

DPR, middle eastern dance is considered a cultural activity (it is, this isn't "exotic" dancing, its based in folkloric and cultural dance) and we can wear costumes for performances that do not cover everything, as long as they are culturally appropriate for the event.  I have friends who do african and polynesian dancing and they are exempt for that as well.  I don't have to wear sleeves in a swimsuit either.  The ball isn't a cultural event, no exemption.

October 10, 2008 12:58 PM
1237 nachista said...

PeterLake I will save you...salads, tofu, fresh stir fry, snackwells, lowfat frozen yogurt, fresh fruit, lean meat grilled with a dry rub over hot coals, baked potato.


Ok its hard to make healthy food SOUND as good as bad food.

October 10, 2008 1:06 PM
210 MACKDADDY1 said...

nachista: thanks for the tip!  I followed it and look what I found:


http://thestinkingrose.com/recipies.htm


If I ever do make it out west, you can bet I will stop there.  Looks yummy!  By the way...I did eat Garlic Chicken for lunch (extra garlic and red chili sauce).  I bet my co-workers are wondering what in the ???? did she eat for lunch? The aroma is still lingering around my office. 


PeterLake:  we have a neighborhood restaurant that sells frickles and pork sandwiches.  They are yummy too.  Damn it Christopher Columbus...I am going to have to go back to the gym tonight just from talking about all of this good food!

October 10, 2008 1:24 PM
141 Peter Lake said...

nachista,

I appreciate the effort.  I think I'll take a restaurant tour and just inhale the aromas.

MACKDADDY,

Are they pulled pork sandwiches, says he while drooling all over the keyboard.

I don't want a frickle, 

I just want to ride my motorsickle

October 10, 2008 1:28 PM
141 Peter Lake said...

I suspect that we may have been artfully led down this path of holiday & festival foods by the good Mr. Peterman so that we gorge ourselves until we have to reorder our favorite clothing in a larger size!  Very clever...... I bet there's a subliminal message on this page somewhere.

October 10, 2008 1:42 PM
210 MACKDADDY1 said...

PeterLake my dear drooling friend they serve both pulled pork piled skyhigh smothered in a hickory smoke barbecue sauce and fried pork loin sandwiches.  Both seved with a delicious crumbly, delicately sweet mexican cornbread, cole slaw, and crispy hand cut french fries with the peel still on.  This is my favorite meal there along with Ky Beer Cheese, celery sticks, and Zesta crackers.  Polished off with homemade blackberry cobbler with a side car of homemade vanilla ice cream!  It is a family owned and operated little dive called Billy's BBQ.  I love your poem...could have used it yesterday.  Sweet nibbling!         

October 10, 2008 1:49 PM
141 Peter Lake said...

MACKDADDY

OMG!!!!!!  lord, take me now!

October 10, 2008 1:50 PM
141 Peter Lake said...

I think my two line poem has Arlo Guthrie roots.

October 10, 2008 1:50 PM
1237 nachista said...

Dangit Peterlake, Pulled Pork sandwiches?  Now I'm hungry.  I am a total bbq slut.  I love all kinds but a good dry rubbed, smoked hog that is pulled apart and tossed with home made molasses/vinegar sauce...hot damn! 


We used to have the best bbq restaurant right in downtown SLC, owned by a former NBA player and his family.  They made blackened catfish, fried chicken, corn pos, potato salad, skillet corn brad, bbq beef brisket, etc...and it was all made fresh from scratch daily.  They were the only restaurant that has ever given me "food hangover", the food was so good that you could not stop eating and as a result the next day you paid for it, but it was sooooo worth it.  Sadly they are closed so the only bbq you can get is at big box restaurants like Chili's and Ruby Tuesday, Yuck!  I cannot stand it when restaraunt throw pre-fired racks of ribs in a chaffing dish filled with ketchup based bbq sauce and then fish one out when you order...GROSS!

October 10, 2008 1:52 PM
1198 Doc Nolan said...

Here's a sorry joke:   

Q:  What day did Columbus discover America?

A:   Monday!  He was afraid to discover America on the weekend because he was afraid it might be closed...

October 10, 2008 2:14 PM
210 MACKDADDY1 said...

Folks: I am supposed to be eating healthier but you have all called me on this one.  We have Billys and another homemade foodie place called Ramsey's like nachista describes.  Everything is homemade and fresh.  The veggies and meats are even locally produced and you usually leave feeling sick because you ate too much.  I am with you nachista...I hate pre-fab food.  I only go to the chain restaurants when I have too.  The only chain I like is Bonefish Grille.  They have the most wonderful food but the margaritas and the martinis are to die for.  Ok...I guess we know where I am going to dinner tonight!  Have a gret weekend everyone.  PeterLake...I will be thiking of you at dinner tonight!         

October 10, 2008 2:20 PM
293 rings90 said...

Peter Lake ~ No we didn't take the Madeline Island Ferry we took the cruise around the Apostle Islands it's such a beautiful area.

October 10, 2008 3:23 PM
790 MissIve said...

Can I just say that of all the Peterman posts that we have collectively derailed, this has by far been the one I have found most darkly humorous.

The question of practical genocide turned to a feeding frenzy is too much. Am secretly trying to deduce what exactly this says about Peterman and his brand that it attracts such cold-hearted pragmatists such as myself, and, apparently, Columbus. Maybe the cowboy thing?

MackDaddy, I'm coming to your party. I have my costume ready and look forward to your Witch's Brew. I'm serious. Get that guest room ready for me!

Trask, Nachista, PeterLake, fried Snickers? Really? I'm so deprived.

And on an even darker note, as much as we may seem to be trivializing this topic today, I do believe it's better than this:

"In South Dakota, the day is officially a state holiday known as 'Native American Day.'"

That's gross. Gross and perverse. Am wondering if that's why Peterman included it at the very end of his post. Very dry wit.

October 10, 2008 3:23 PM
1058 Olivia said...

Roberts, thanks for defending SVD, it's my favorite holiday after my birthday. Everyone is excused for being as romantic as possible! There's not enough romance in the world, and if we have to MAKE people think about it for at least one day, I'm down with it.


Actually, every day's a festival with me. Today was Huge Orange Silk Peterman Skirt Festival Day, and I wore it proudly. JP figures prominently in many fests I observe.


All this food talk makes me want to visit the BBQ shack down the road for the best chicken basket in the known universe. You want details? Forget it, I hate to wait in line...


Tomorrow's the Komen Race for the Cure here. I'll be trotting along, thinking about my next (OUCH!) mammogram. It always reminds me of the SNL sketch:


(knock on the door)


Innocent lass: Who is it?


Land Shark: singing telegram


IL: Go away


LS: Pajamagram


IL: I don't wear pajamas.


LS: Candygram.


IL: OOH! (opens door)


LS:MAMMOGRAM!!


IL: EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

October 10, 2008 3:40 PM
1237 nachista said...

Missive, you haven't lived until you've tried Deep Fried PB&J.  I've tried a lot of deep fried weirdness, I've worked in kitchens and when we got bored we would batter and fry things that probably should never be fried.


One of our best experiements was a slice of ripe tomato, dab of pesto, covered in fresh mozzarella, wrapped in thin pizza dough and fried...it was so good it became a regular menu item.  I would have to say the worst fried food item we made was fried grapes, its wrong, just don't do it!

October 10, 2008 3:41 PM
1237 nachista said...

Just got a message that Sir Boyscout is coming home early.  One of their corpsman offed himself and they are sending everyone home.  I'm going home to get the house ready, see y'all Tuesday.

October 10, 2008 3:43 PM
1058 Olivia said...

Heiress-Merci pour la poesie-quel envoutement, si charmant! Quand on lit ses mots au musique d'ambiance, au fond, c'est magique, n'est ce pas?

October 10, 2008 3:45 PM
1058 Olivia said...

Sunshine-I think Lovey's our baby, sorry to take so long to "get it" LOL. (winks at nachista)

October 10, 2008 4:22 PM
141 Peter Lake said...

Just a quick shifting of gears, yet again, and taking just a nickel ride in Mr. Peabody's Way-Back Machine to yesterday, I just though of Paul Simon being a wonderfully versatile poet/songwriter.

If someone already mentioned him, well, just fuhget aboudit.

October 10, 2008 4:23 PM
210 MACKDADDY1 said...

Missive:


I'm ready for ya!  COME ON DOWN!     

October 10, 2008 4:44 PM
293 rings90 said...

Deep Fried Cheese Curds ~ Such a local Favorite ~ Really its down right un-American not to deep fry your cheeses in this region of the country.


and now back to our topic ~ I just can't seem to bring myself to say that Columbus was a bad guy. I mean did he REALLY set off to find slaves? or was it just his way of making Lemonade out of Lemons when he realzed he wasn't actually in India?  I mean can you imagine having to pay Isabella & Ferdinand back for not finding what he promised too? No offense but Isabella had some CRAZY on her side of the family tree & I wouldn't wnat to be the one to cross that particular family.


If you would like to know more about the Isabella CRAZY lineage look up Joanna the Mad and continue on from there. Her poor ancestors were really got some awful family traits.

October 10, 2008 4:59 PM
belleball said...

around here, miles and miles from where old Chris first landed and set foot, the local cuisine includes boneless liver and boneless dill pickles.

October 10, 2008 5:04 PM
790 MissIve said...

PeterLake,

One of my favorite Paul Simon quotes, which I say to myself often when I get too caught up in the 'who did what to whom,' and which I think ties yesterday's topic nicely to today's:

"It was a myth of fingerprints."

October 10, 2008 5:05 PM
790 MissIve said...

MackDaddy,

Bags are packed. Ima comin'. I just won't tell you my costume. You won't find me until the end of the night when I've passed out under your Witch's Brew bowl. Please tuck me in!

J

October 10, 2008 5:13 PM
790 MissIve said...

Here PeterLake,

You probably know the song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3_h0MEMPt0

I think that's Columbus on the horse. . .

October 10, 2008 5:20 PM
790 MissIve said...

Dude, he so would not have had a horse, would he? Seriously, Jen, less fiction, more history.

Although, the two often get conflated. So maybe it's not just me.

October 10, 2008 5:21 PM
141 Peter Lake said...

Miss Ive,

That's definitely one of my top ten-all-time-favorite albums and you are right about the relevance of the quote.  I'm going to Graceland. . . . . 

October 10, 2008 5:49 PM
141 Peter Lake said...

while wearing diamonds on the soles of my shoes......

Hey folks, whatever you are celebrating Monday, or even if you're not, enjoy it as much as you can; even if it is just the gift of another sunrise and sunset.

and that's all I've got to say about that..

October 10, 2008 6:01 PM
519 DreadPirateRoberts said...

Olivia,


"Tomorrow is Saint Valentine's day.
All in the morning betime,
And I a maid at your window,
To be your Valentine."


--Hamlet

October 10, 2008 9:14 PM
1058 Olivia said...

Roberts, thank you...


Come, gentle night, - come, loving black brow'd night,
Give me my Romeo; and when he shall die,
Take him and cut him out in little stars,
And he will make the face of Heaven so fine
That all the world will be in love with night,
And pay no worship to the garish sun.

October 10, 2008 9:20 PM
724 Capt Neptune said...

There once was a man from Nantucket......

October 10, 2008 10:06 PM
1058 Olivia said...

Yes, Captain? Go ahead, I'm all ears...

October 10, 2008 10:17 PM
141 Peter Lake said...

Miss Ive,

As far as the horse goes, if he coulda, he woulda . . . .

October 10, 2008 10:31 PM
1058 Olivia said...

Doubt thou the stars are fire;
Doubt that the sun doth move;
Doubt truth to be a liar;
But never doubt I love.


Fortune, good-night: smile once more; turn thy wheel!


Goodnight, all-may flights of angels sing thee to thy rest!

October 10, 2008 10:38 PM
519 DreadPirateRoberts said...

Olivia,


No need for the good captain to continue.  The limerick loses its lustre now that we all know the man from Nantucket lost a contest to Milton Berle.

October 10, 2008 11:40 PM
1237 nachista said...

*coming up for air and food break*


Capt Neptune?  The poetry thread was yesterday *gigglesnortgiggle*, I kept waiting for that little limerick to come up.  You want to know something sad?  I have no idea how the rest of that one goes.  I can imagine, but I've never actually heard anyone finish it.


*back to the lair*

October 11, 2008 1:00 AM
724 Capt Neptune said...

There once was a man from Nantucket
Who kept all his cash in a bucket.
But his daughter, named Nan,
Ran away with a man
And as for the bucket, Nantucket.


Yeh, I bet you thought it would be dirty.  You should know me better than that.

October 11, 2008 11:35 AM
519 DreadPirateRoberts said...

nachista,


The poem from Four Weddings and a Funeral you were inquiring about, the one John Hannah reads at Simon Callow's funeral, is called Funeral Blues by W.H. Auden.

October 11, 2008 11:45 PM
1058 Olivia said...

Cap-Awesome! I love limericks. Sometimes they spring full blown from my head, sometimes I even write them down. Here's one such I produced, wishful thinking I suppose, after this jerk was banned from the campus for all manner of unseemly behaviour:


Shocking curses were often roared out                                                                         In the halls by the loathsome young lout.                                                                   So the campus gendarmes took him by both his arms                                                And with sticks put his demons to rout.

October 11, 2008 11:47 PM
1058 Olivia said...

s\Shoot, that came out all wrong! What's up with the script on this site anyway?


I'll try again:


A wicked young miss from Maumelle


Choked one day on a dip of Rotel


And no action or aid


Could prevent this mean maid


From descending directly to hell.


Ah, well. How'd you get it to single-space? It's beyond my poor power to add or detract...

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Queen Isabella ctspanish.com Take a look at an interesting article we found.

A Leiv Eiriksson Day? mnc.net Take a look at an interesting article we found.

Sad times for Nina, Pinta, Santa Maria statesman.com Take a look at an interesting article we found.

Honor Roll


The Aztecs were systematic killers of their own people and other tribes in religious rituals. But...

-ExPat

Oct. 10, 2008 12:29 AM

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